Girls and Getting a Diagnosis
The November 13th Newsweek has an article, More Than Just Quirky, about girls and women with Asperger’s Syndrome: Are girls and women sometimes not diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum because they do not have the same symptoms as boys and men do?
Girls, it’s noted, have more “socially acceptable” obsessions—”horse and books,” perhaps, rather than “vacuum cleaners or oscillating fans”:
“Girls tend to get obsessed with things that are a little less strange,” says Elizabeth Roberts, a neuropsychologist at the Asperger Institute at the New York University Child Study Center. “That makes it harder to distinguish normal from abnormal.” That observation is consistent with a 2007 study of 700 children on the spectrum, which found that girls’ obsessive interests reflected the interests of girls in the general population; the same was not true for boys.
In addition to more socially acceptable obsessions, Roberts says, the Aspie girls she sees are more adept at copying the behaviors, mannerisms and dress codes of those around them, than Aspie boys tend to be. “From my personal experience, they seem to have a greater drive to fit in than boys with Asperger’s do,” she says. “So they spend a lot of time studying other girls and trying to copy them.” When social settings change, this can spell disaster. “As you move from high school to college, or from one group of friends to another, you have a whole new set of rules to learn,” said one Aspie woman who asked not to be named. “Not only do you lose your own identity, but if you end up surrounded by the wrong people—mimicking their behavior without understanding the motivations behind it can lead to big trouble.”
Of course, it’s not just different symptoms that stymie diagnosis—cultural conditioning may also play a role. What looks like pathological social awkwardness in a little boy can seem like mere bashfulness or just good old-fashioned manners in a little girl.
Newsweek also points out that “social mores might also make the disorder more harrowing” for girls, especially as they grow up and are expected to be more ’sympathetic and empathetic than boys.” It’s even noted that “desperation” for some kind of social connections “can make girls with Asperger’s easy prey for sexual predators.”
Over the past few years, it’s occurred to me that more than a few friends and others whom I’ve known—-and women, in particular—are on the autism spectrum. Most of them are undiagnosed; knowing about Asperger’s has helped me to understand why one friend, one instance, used to get so irritated when I started analyzing books and movies (her feeling: just talk about them, no need to “break them down and ask all those questions”). Another related some misunderstandings about what a member of the opposite sex was saying and found herself in a situation that wasn’t so easy to extricate herself from. And, adolescence was the beginning of many difficult years after a childhood that had been comparatively peaceful, especially thanks to parents who were glad to encourage some obsessions and cultivate them.
The Newsweek article opens and closes by referring to a mother, Liane Willey, whose daughter was diagnosed with Aspeger’s. Willey notes that she is “quirky” herself:
Doctors diagnosed her right alongside her daughter. Liane says that diagnosis changed everything for her. “It was like a light bulb went off,” she says. “I was able to seek out the right kind of treatment, and after a lifetime of mimicking others, finally find my own identity.” And early diagnosis has helped her daughter (now a healthy teenager) avoid many of the pitfalls that Liane herself fell prey to.
I’ve got my own set of “quirks” and—following Charlie’s diagnosis, have wondered if I might be somewhere on the spectrum and, while there are many qualities that Charlie and I share, I don’t think I’m autistic (well, that’s what I think). Has having an autistic child made you more aware of your own “quirks” and obsessions, and possibly of an actual diagnosis?
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POSTED IN: Asperger's Syndrome, Diagnosis, Gender
35 opinions for Girls and Getting a Diagnosis
lonestar
Nov 17, 2008 at 9:18 am
That’s interesting, yep I have noticed a lot of my quirks since my boys were dx’d. I went so far as to major in psychology in an attempt to better understand people (I did ultimately change fields to something more numbers-driven). I don’t think I’m actually on the spectrum, but I can see the tendencies there.
Fearless Females
Nov 17, 2008 at 9:30 am
Having an autistic child definitely makes you more aware of yourself and the people around you. Sometimes I “over examine” people around me too–but, then, tend to be right.
This was a great article and the “Sally” test is very interesting…
Melanie, Bobby's Mom
Nov 17, 2008 at 10:06 am
As an elementary and middle-school student, I was close to Aspie, but not quite diagnosable. I was a definite geek - uncomfortable with peers, socially awkward, some synasthesia, physically uncoordinated, obsessive, “little professor”-ish, one of the only girls in school to play with computers, etc. Ironically, what made me “bloom” (for lack of a better term) was going to a 3 week summer camp at Duke University - the Talent Identification Program (TIP), after 8th, 9th and 10th grades. There, I learned it was OK to be smart; in fact, it was desirable. There, the higher your SAT scores and grades and the tougher your course list was, the higher your social status rose. Quite the opposite of my experiences up to that time. Matter of fact, I learned that being a girl geek could be quite a power trip - so many boys to flirt with, so few other girls around and only 3 weeks at camp, or something like that :) Seriously, learning that being intelligent and NOT having to hide it and NOT having the latest clothes matter was a transformational experience in many ways. I even had a boyfriend who didn’t want to copy my homework! And with that experience (and the arrival of cleavage!) my self-confidence went up and I learned to cope better with the regular world, mostly because I just didn’t care anymore about the kids who used to bully me. They became immaterial, really, and once they couldn’t bother me they went looking for easier prey.
At our TIP reunion a couple of years ago, a lot of us commented that TIP saved our sanity as kids, and to a large extent we lived from summer to summer. In those pre-internet, pre-text messaging, pre-cheap long distance days in the early to mid 80’s, camps like Duke TIP and the one at Stanford and a few others were the only outlets a lot of us non-urban kids had to socialize and feel understood.
I have to wonder though, since a lot of marriages were formed through TIP and the other programs, what our percentage of ASD kids is as a population? Might make an interesting study…
bullet
Nov 17, 2008 at 10:17 am
“From my personal experience, they seem to have a greater drive to fit in than boys with Asperger’s do,” she says. “So they spend a lot of time studying other girls and trying to copy them.” ”
Erm, no, Not always. It never occurred to me that I should be trying to fit in or keep up with latest fashions or music. If I liked something I liked it regardless of what others thought of it.
Tony Attwood, in my opinion, whilst he has had a lot of spot on things to say about Aspergers, nevertheless made a fundamentally wrong assumption about females and Aspergers. He claimed, or at least suggested, that young girls who were Aspergers were “mothered” a lot of the time by other girls, or that the Aspergers girls were more aware of and made more of an effort to fit in with things, to copy and want to copy what the other girls were doing. So they could “pass” as “typical”.
Completely and utterly wrong on both accounts with myself. I was bullied throughout a large part of my school days because I didn’t fit in and had no idea I should be doing anything to fit in. I did not receive a diagnosis not because I fitted in so much that I was “indistinguishable from my peers” but for several main reasons, namely:
1: My mum has since admitted to me that herself, my dad, teachers and paediatricians at least all picked up on the fact I was different, but my mum was so worried I’d be labelled and seen as a set of negatives that she deliberately lied about a few things and presumed I’d struggle through.
2: I found - and still find - initiating things very difficult, which includes speaking and asking for help with something and often did not realise I needed to be asking for things. When I was (and am) upset and worried about something I react(ed) by becoming very withdrawn and quiet. Example, when I was 8 my dad told me two hours before the coach was to arrive that I wouldn’t be going on a Brownie camping trip. I didn’t react at all on the outside, no questions, no tears, no sulks, nothing. Inside I was devastated. But of course since I did not show any reaction my parents would have presumed I wasn’t fussed. And if you’re a teacher and you have a pupil who is very quiet and isn’t going to be seen as disruptive, the chances are you may not think of pushing to get that child assessed.
I don’t think that growing up without a diagnosis was completely a bad thing. Obviously I would have liked to have been given help with some things, but I’ve managed to find my own niche in things and whilst I’m still very quiet and still have lots of repetitive actions and obsessions and still very much fit the criteria for Aspergers I can now avoid more things I struggle with.
Cristina
Nov 17, 2008 at 10:28 am
Re “quirks”. As I often explain to my guys, everyone has a little autism. Whether it is the quirks or the anxiety, or the communication, obssessiveness, etc. What makes it reasonable for a girl or boy or adult to receive an ASD/AS diagnosis is when all of those “quirks” etc. affect the quality of life and ability to function and to achive full potential regardless of cognitive ability.
I do believe that sometimes Autism may be getting a bit confused with giftedness which can also make it very difficult, and needs it own specialized set of parenting and teaching strategies, as well as an environment that is supporting. Gifted children are often bullied much like other children with Aspergers or Tourette’s. It also makes it difficult to fit in and socialize, when your cognitive ability is miles ahead of that of your peers, but that is not Autism, it’s Giftedness. Not everyone has a sense of style, and that doesn’t make them Autistic. We all have different gifts, some musical, some language, some style, that is why we are all so different. And we all have our quirks, but not all can hold a job, or live independently, without social and family supports in place - that is autism.
Janice
Nov 17, 2008 at 10:31 am
As the mother of an autistic daughter (who’s all about manga and penguins), I know that I took a good, hard look at myself while we went through the diagnostic process. Certainly, I see some aspects of my own personality in her (my husband sees the same for him), yet both of us can manage in the daily world in ways that she just can’t.
What concerns me is that she’s very much living in a “boy’s world” with her ASD class. She’s the only female student (second year in a row) and she hungers for social contact with other girls that school doesn’t provide. I see integration as a feeble substitute for the same (the kids are nice but don’t really see her as a friend because they see her for a hundred minutes a day at best). But with the end of respite activities in our town, she really doesn’t have anything else.
autismville
Nov 17, 2008 at 10:40 am
It was a very timely article as I continue to have concerns about my 8 year old daughter. I don’t want to overanalyze, but I certainly don’t want her entering adolescence dealing with this on her own…if it’s an issue for her.
Cristina
Nov 17, 2008 at 10:49 am
My oldest is also a Manga/Anime kid - It’s hard to find other kids that have that interest to begin with (with as much intensity). My son is teaching himself Japanese so he can understand the originals - Yikes!!!. I couldn’t get him to learn our own native language.
We have a Manga Club at an adjoining town. I drive 20 minutes to get there (a library) - It’s a good way for making friends. Maybe you could start something like that and include a little girlish stuff too, so that other girls would come.
julie
Nov 17, 2008 at 11:05 am
This is exactly what we are dealing with. We were told that our daughter is 2/3 on the spectrum. She just does not have stereotypical obsessive behavior so we can not get her diagnosed. When I brought up her obsession with horses and talking about death and dying the dr said that is not stereotypical so it does not fall in that category. Very frustrating to get a girl a dx and the help that goes with that. We are grateful she is so high functioning but it has complicated things for us.
Emily
Nov 17, 2008 at 11:18 am
Still not much of a clue here about how to socialize with women, especially. I just don’t “get it” (as several here who don’t like what I say have pointed out). Bullied mercilessly from age 6 to age 14; friendless through most of that period. Strange, “age-inappropriate” obsessions from very early on. I once had a school librarian refuse to check out another book in a series I was obsessed with because she wanted me to “read something else now.” (Great librarian, eh?). I was extraordinarily socially naive, probably well into my 20s. I also have a weird literary dichotomy in that I can pull symbolism out of a movie or book easily, rely heavily on irony in many of my own communications, but also am a total literalist when it comes to what other people say to ME. I still don’t “get” those things.
When people touch me, my first instinct is to punch them–not such a great way to interact, and it’s an act of extreme will to stop myself. Almost anything I do socially, I’m “acting” (unless I’m with my family or very very close and equally odd friends). Everything I do socially, I “learned” consciously and copy consciously, following “algorithms” of interaction that I’ve learned through years and years of careful observation. I have auditory processing/discrimination difficulties and fantastic visual discrimination. My affect, especially when sensory inputs are high, is very very flat. It goes instantly flat the minute I feel overwhelmed, like a defense or something.
The only fiction I ever read I’m still obsessed with, and that’s Anthony Trollope (thank God he was so prolific). I re-read his novels constantly. Otherwise, the only other reading I ever do is non-fiction, usually sciency or exploration stuff.
I don’t like to be around people, at all. It is exhausting. I won’t go to crowded places, ever, and hate places like malls, Wal-Mart, etc.
So…not to irritate pD, but my opinion is that had I been a little girl in 2008 instead of 1978, things might have been different for me. I don’t go around telling people I’m autistic and would never bother to seek any kind of diagnosis at this point (what would be the use? So I could tell folks like pD that I’m REALLY fo’ real fo’ sho’ the gin-u-wine article?), but they seem aware enough anyway that I’m a little “off.” I tell you what, though…I’ve gotten REALLY good at “passing” as “typical” (at least in casual contact), and I think I came into a lot of awareness about it in my 30s.
Navi
Nov 17, 2008 at 11:48 am
quirks-yes. On the spectrum? No. I agree with the notion that quirky gifted kids might get mistaken as aspergers. My daughter looks very aspergers to the untrained eye, based on what they’ve seen on tv, but it’s really anxiety, depression, high activity, high imagination, extremely intelligent, socially awkward but very social, perfectionism, sensory issues and escapism. Not autism. A lot of obsessions can be tied to escapism. You don’t want to deal with the real world, and have an active imagination… I’ve noticed a lot of the other smart kids try to get Lola’s attention, but since she has a bad nonconformist streak, and being smart kids, they tend to try and help her follow the rules, she doesn’t necessarily get along with them as well as other kids.
So we definitely have some spectrum like qualites, but the only one of us besides my son that truly comes close is his father.
Ecki
Nov 17, 2008 at 12:16 pm
When my daughter was three, she had so many autistic symptoms (I posted them in an earlier comment about losing a diagnosis) that she got the PDD-NOS diagnosis. She’s lost most of the rigidity and stereotypy but she’s definitely still “quirky”. And she cries all the time. Maybe it’s just more socially acceptable when girls cry because of extreme anxiety.
As for my quirks, well, my daughter is my clone. I also had the hyperlexia, I remember reading by age 2 and my parents’ books of classics (Poe, Shakespeare, Somerset Maughm, Robert Louis Stevenson, etc) by 2nd grade. I don’t know if I’d pursue a diagnosis, but everything about my past makes a lot more sense to me!
Cristina
Nov 17, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Julie - have you taken her to be evaluated by a developmental pediatrician/neurologist or a Neuropsychologist? A regular doctor may not diagnose the whole ASD condition if he/she is not trained to treat it - many still aren’t. I never heard of 2/3 DIAGNOSIS. But my oldest son was diagnosed with many conditions until a trained doc, finally put it all together under the ASD umbrella. Today that we know more, he’s a Textbook Asperger’s kid. And he always was. We just didn’t know it - lot’s of wasted time.
julie
Nov 17, 2008 at 1:33 pm
We had her diagnosed by a developmental psychologist the specialist at our children’s hospital. I think 2/3 rds was his way of saying that she was just missing the one component. We have an appointment with a developmental pediatrician at the same hospital but I have been told that they typically defer to the psychologists on diagnosis. My pediatrician would love to be able to diagnose her but that is not how it is done here so he is doing what he can to get her what she needs.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Nov 17, 2008 at 1:45 pm
From the Telegraph—-a 10 year old girl diagnoses herself with Asperger’s after reading a book.
Cristina
Nov 17, 2008 at 2:28 pm
About the story - I am sure there must be missing information - she sounds more gifted than an Aspie.
Julie - even if you don’t have an official diagnosis of ASD/AS you can still request an educational evaluation in all suspected areas of need. The earlier the intervention the better.
julie
Nov 17, 2008 at 2:31 pm
She is in special ed through the schools the problem is support services outside of school and an understanding of how severe her communication problems are at school. We have been going through this process for the past 3 years.
Shannon Des Roches Rosa
Nov 17, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Thanks for bringing attention to this topic. I left a comment on the original article which I will reproduce here, with additional notes (Newsweek limits comment length):
Girls with undiagnosed Asperger’s can be perfect bullying targets: trying to navigate increasingly complex social networks, while beset by the savage pack mentalities of mean girls. I co-edit The Can I Sit With You? project, which shares real stories of school social experiences to help other children (and adults) better understand their peers. One of our most wrenching stories deals with just this topic: http://www.canisitwithyou.org/?p=127
By “wrenching” I mean that most parents of kids on the spectrum either cannot finish the story, or refuse to re-read it. But I do think it’s a critical read for anyone interested in helping our children protect themselves, and helping our children’s peers develop compassion.
It was written by lastcrazyhorn, who is currently enrolled in college and was only recently diagnosed. She is charming and insightful and passionate. I recommend her site to those of you not already familiar with it:
http://lastcrazyhorn.wordpress.com
Suzanne
Nov 17, 2008 at 3:10 pm
“Has having an autistic child made you more aware of your own “quirks” and obsessions, and possibly of an actual diagnosis?”
Very much so. Many in my family line. Most interesting is that both my dh and i have traits, but neither are dx-able. It helps me see that the whole population is a range/spectrum.
Karen
Nov 17, 2008 at 3:31 pm
“Has having an autistic child made you more aware of your own “quirks”?
Most definitely so. I see things in myself that I would have never questioned until my son’s diagnosis. The light and sound issue is a biggie. But that may be just the fact that my mother was profoundly hard of hearing growing up (she had cerebral palsy) and I almost never had noise to deal with in the house. It’s certainly been on my mind.
Emily
Nov 17, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Shannon is absolutely right about Last Crazy Horn.
Tara
Nov 17, 2008 at 7:29 pm
@Emily,
I could have written most of this, including specific episodes in spite of being born and raised on different continent. Librarian refusing to give me “age-inappropriate book” - check. Bullied between ages 6-14 - check. Missing clue when it comes to communication with women - check.
Last year my company sent me to what was supposed to be “professional women” conference. As I bluntly told my manager the next day, it was one big, fat sensory overload and IMHO quite a waste of time and registration fee. Lunch table was prepopulated by several already seated ladies from the same company. They were, however, mostly engaged in lady-like endeavours such as marketing and HR management whereas I am that elusive animal even at this day and age - staff engineer. I had to take one of available places and two of them talked literally over my head for the whole hour, barely acknowledging my presence. Granted, I was probably giving off non-verbal signals of “unless you shut up for a minute I just might lose it” kind. For a moment, I was transfered back in time to my middle school years where I always had the distinct feeling of not being quite the same species as most people around me. That feeling was pretty much gone once I got myself into science and engineering oriented high school, university and workspace but from time to time I do get reminded that it is possible to stray out of the Aspie nature reserve which I ordinarily inhabit.
Emily
Nov 17, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Tara…sounds like a freaking nightmare. I can’t even travel with other people if there’s a plan to share rooms, etc. I have to have my own room, and they have to be people who understand that some folks can’t hang 24-7 with other people. I always travel alone if I can, and at conferences, I usually stand around alone–or end up talking to men, and not in a flirty way or even on purpose, but in a sciency way, by accident. It’s just how I communicate.
Last Crazy Horn’s piece is like reading my life story. The bullying was simply merciless. And the teachers/counselors/principals? In that day and age, just as likely to blame the bullied (for somehow “attracting” it) as to do one damned thing about the bully. For me, it was daily–extending to phone calls after school and visits to my home to attack me–it was daily, it was systematic, it was everywhere I went, and it lasted for years. I thought incessantly about killing myself and cried all the time “for no reason.” I laid awake at nights with indescribable anxieties covering everything from burglars invading to the house burning down to who was going to try to kick my ass at school the next day.
Boy, am I glad that’s over.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Nov 17, 2008 at 8:40 pm
thanks to Shannon for mentioning Can I Sit With You—–also brings to mind the (unfortunate) “Mean Girls” situation and of psychological bullying.
siliconmom
Nov 18, 2008 at 12:01 am
Do I see my own quirks now from an autism perspective? You betcha. Both my husband and I can see ourselves in our kids - he says specifically of my stepsons that they’re him taken to an extreme and I can say the same for our girls - they’re a combo of both of us. I don’t think either of us are autistic by any stretch of the imagination but we definitely have traits. I guess we were just the right cocktail.
Storkdok
Nov 18, 2008 at 12:54 am
Last year when I attended a Tony Attwood conference, thankfully with my son’s brilliant speech therapist who had become a close acquaintance, I completely broke down when he started talking about the bullying that Aspies have been subjected to. All the memories I had suppressed for over 30 years came flooding back. They are still much too painful to face. I am afraid I will not be functional if I let them out.
Chris H.
Nov 18, 2008 at 1:31 am
Wait, hold it… bullying is not “normal”?
Tara, that sounds like my life!
Fortunately my company never sent me a “conference” like that (they were too cheap!). But I do remember getting the female only questions at initial program evaluation, realizing that the other engineers were not being asked those questions (over twenty years ago, so I forgot what they were), I blacked them out and refused to answer them.
I am old enough to remember that majoring in engineering was being able to be comfortable as the only female in a class of 40, but uncomfortable in a class discussing “Women in the Workplace”… which I dropped (because I had actually worked in a factory, versus those had who just read about it!).
suzanne
Nov 18, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Comment:
Wait, hold it… bullying is not “normal”?
wow, I kind of thought it must be as well.
I mean, was I really such a freak? Everywhere I went, they found something about me that just didn’t belong. But the things they hated me for were things I wouldn’t or couldn’t change.
life is so much better after 40. ;o)
Tara
Nov 18, 2008 at 5:34 pm
You know, the bullying I went through was not exactly “normal” - at least it was not the garden variety bullying that my son (and many other boys) unfortunately went through.
Noone ever hit me. It was much more subtle, and for the good part was morphing into exploitation. For instance, there was a girl who used to phone me every afternoon and ask me to give her answers to math homework. Day in, day out, for months. If I did that, she would be my friend. If I refused to do that, she would give me the guilt trip of my life. Was this bullying? Yes, it was. It was as impossible for me to stand up to her based on emotional/social blackmail as it was for my son when he was faced with physical threats.
Naydi
Nov 26, 2008 at 2:42 am
I had some traits of Aspergers as a child (less so as an adult). As a child I was obsessed with ballet and cats, and I refused to wear anything but stretch leggings for several years (sensory issues I’m sure). I don’t think I would have ever qualified for a diagnosis though.
I did have diagnosed issues with auditory processing, anxiety, speech, and dyslexia though. I think autism spectrum disorder have a great deal of crossover with childhood onset anxiety/OCD issues and learning disabilities. Perhaps everything exists on a spectrum.
Shana Nichols, Ph.D.
Nov 26, 2008 at 8:14 am
As a psychologist / Clinical Director at the Fay J. Lindner Center for Autism and author of the newly published book “Girls Growing Up on the Autism Spectrum”, I am pleased by the recent media attention to understanding females with autism spectrum conditions. Many of the girls in our Girls Programming come to our center having had very little interaction and experiences in connecting with other girls who are like them. One of our teen group participants stated emphatically “this is the only place I have felt accepted, understood, and that I belong”. At our center we are working on developing clinical and research programs to meet the learning needs of females with ASDs across all ages. It’s an exciting endeavor for all of us, including our clients.
Website for our book on girls with ASDs: http://www.jkp.com/catalogue/book.php/isbn/9781843108559
Randy
Nov 26, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Emily:
Sounds like you might have a Sensory Processing Disfunciton (SPD).
see yourtube on research ongoing: http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=98788985626&h=Y6xow
We think our 10-year old has SPD and are having a he\\ of a time avoiding a knee-jerk ADHD diagnosis, so it is off to the city of brotherly love to meet with Dr. Schaaf.
A Voice to Listen To
Nov 27, 2008 at 10:34 pm
[...] “rich and dark mezzo soprano voice,” today’s Charlotte Observer notes. Sawyer was not diagnosed with autism until she was 17 years old. She started piano lessons and performing with school choirs at the age [...]
Joseph
Dec 1, 2008 at 7:46 pm
That reminds me of this:
http://elvenjedi.livejournal.com/251258.html
“Because I’m sick of seeing that ‘Tribute to the Nice Guys’ thing. Retort:
“This is my tribute to the nice girls. To the nice girls who are overlooked, who become friends and nothing more, who spend hours fixating upon their looks and their personalities and their actions because it must be they that are doing something wrong. This is for the girls who don’t give it up on the first date, who don’t want to play mind games, who provide a comforting hug and a supportive audience for a story they’ve heard a thousand times…”
You know how some self-proclaimed “nice guys” throw themselves at women who throw themselves at male jerks and claim “we’re finishing last, all women want jerks instead of us!” as if the other women, their female counterparts, don’t even exist?
I wonder how much of the denial of women and girls having ASD/AS is the same kind of thing. You know, people claiming that guys with ASD/AS finish last because the cheerleaders pick the Big Men On Campus instead and “women can get sex whenever they want.”
Kristina Chew, PhD
Dec 1, 2008 at 10:35 pm
@Joseph,
I think you’re describing more than a few individuals I’ve known…………….
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